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Post by mccarthy55cmu on Oct 11, 2013 20:24:08 GMT -6
So I posted this on the NCDA website but I figured it would get more feedback here.
I disagree with two of the rules that were discussed on the podcast.
1)When a timeout is called, all balls in the air should not be considered dead.
Ex: Team A has one person in while Team B has more than one. Team B has all the balls due to a shot clock violation and is trying to get Team A’s one man out. Team B all run up at the same time and launch all the balls. Team A’s captain is sitting on the sideline and just before the player gets hit, he calls timeout. By the rule we have in place Team A’s player would not be out even if 10 balls were 5 feet from hitting him. I believe that if you have your throw off before the whistle is thrown then it should be considered a legit throw.
2) The second is the shot clock reset rule. I don’t remember this rule being brought up at Nationals to be changed. I don’t ever remember seeing or reading the rule that the ball had to enter the LAZ in order to reset the shot clock.
Just my thoughts, let me know what everyone else thinks.
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Post by hiller 87 on Oct 11, 2013 22:00:17 GMT -6
In regards to issue #2:
Disagree with the second point you make, that’s always been the rule, it just hasn’t been fully enforced. For example, a ball leaves your hand at 14.5 seconds, which leads to a shot clock being reset. However, that ball does not land anywhere near someone, or you throw from your own baseline at 14.5 seconds, get it to the other baseline, but that throw takes 2 or 3 seconds. It’s easier to just say it needs to get into the LAZ by the 15 clock, and it makes it way more fair.
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Post by mccarthy55cmu on Oct 12, 2013 13:00:15 GMT -6
How has the always been the rule? Just because it's NOW being read as having to enter the LAZ to be reset doesn't mean that has always been the rule. And if the ball was released at 14.5 and doesn't go into the LAZ, the ref is at fault for not calling the shot clock violation.
Also, if this rule is going to be implemented this year, the shot clock is no longer 15 seconds, it will be 13 seconds. Because a throw leaving someones hand after 13.5-14 seconds isn't going to count.
If you look at the NBA for instance, whose shot clock we adopted, the ball must leave the hand of the shooter before the clock hits 0. The ball also must hit the backboard or rim. That means, leaving the hand BEFORE 15 and landing in the LAZ even if it is after those 15 seconds have expired. If the ball does not hit the rim, or land in the LAZ, then there is a shot clock violation.
This is going to be my 7th Nationals and we have always played it as when the ball is released. I'm just confused as to how it got changed without anyone saying anything or bringing it up.
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Post by peters27 on Oct 12, 2013 16:50:27 GMT -6
..When was this voted on as being a rule? We've been playing matches all season with the rule we're all accustomed to of releasing the ball before 15 seconds as the rule.
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Post by hiller 87 on Oct 12, 2013 19:41:34 GMT -6
This has always been a rule, it was just never enforced correctly and this is the first time that it has been properly worded.
Mike, your NBA example would hold up if we only played with one ball. By getting off the shot, if it's a violation, it doesn't matter. If in the NCDA you had for example 7 balls, throw one at 14.5 seconds that misses the LAZ, but before the first throw misses the LAZ a second throw at 15.3 seconds that makes the LAZ, then it needs to be a violation. As I've always understood it, that has always been the rule. Last year's rulebook states this, just over two separate definition. Even the rulebook from 08-09 I believe states this, I can look it up if you'd like.
As far as the "well if the ball is released at 14.5 and doesn't hit the LAZ, if referee doesn't immediately call SCV it will create unneeded controversy as teams will undoubtedly say "You need to call that right away" either regarding to "we want the balls!" or "we don't want to give up the balls!"
This is not a new rule, it's a restatement of a rule that was never properly enforced.
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Post by mccarthy55cmu on Oct 12, 2013 20:12:13 GMT -6
I agree Hiller that the second throw you talk about is not legitimate. The first throw is not legitimate either because it doesn't reach that LAZ.
The problem is this rule has NEVER been in effect. So I'm completely baffled as to why would start playing this way. If the wording isn't correct then why don't we change it to the current way we play rather than changing it and wording it so it completely changes the rule.
The way it is worded now it is no longer a 15 seconds, it's more of a 13 seconds because of the 2 second span it takes the ball to get to the LAZ.
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cg
Full Member
Posts: 194
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Post by cg on Oct 12, 2013 20:22:53 GMT -6
My initial response upon hearing about the shot clock enforcement issue:
Upon reading the 2012-2013 rulebook, however, it appears that the rule is properly enforced as described.
3.3.3.4.3 Resetting the Shot Clock - To reset the Shot Clock, a Player must make a Direct Throw at the Opposing Team in a Legitimate Attempt to eliminate an Opponent. 3.3.4.3.1 Legitimate Attempt - a Direct Throw within range of a Target, which may allow the Target to make a play on said Direct Throw...
As written, the throw must be within range of the target in order to reset the shot clock. The reset only happens if the ball is within range of the target. The question then becomes, What causes the violation itself?
3.3.4.6 Shot Clock Violation - Failure to make a Legitimate Attempt at resetting the Stop Clock will result in a Stoppage of Play [3.3.1] and forfeiture of all Balls to the other Team
Combine the two rules (Shot Clock Violation and definition of Legitimate Attempt) and you get the following:
Failure to make a Direct Throw within range of a Target, which may allow the Target to make a play on said Direct Throw, at resetting the Stop Clock will result in a Stoppage of Play [3.3.1] and forfeiture of all Balls to the other Team
Proper enforcement of the 2012-2013 rule would be that the ball needs to get there before the 15 count, which I will admit is contrary to the way I enforced it last year.
I suspect this actually makes the job more straightforward from an officiating standpoint, since the officials would no longer have to have their attention on both the throwing team and the remaining players simultaneously - we no longer have to track 6-10 balls at once, remember who threw prior to the shot clock violation, and watch to see which, if any, come close enough to the opposing team. We would only have to watch the target, where we're naturally looking anyway, to see if any balls come close enough.
It also likely speeds play up from a gameplay standpoint. If properly enforced, players must ensure their throw hits home, or is close enough, rather than going through their windup, within 15 seconds. This will also likely cause players to make some ill-advised throws now and again, which leads to greater possibilities for athletic catches, which provides more entertainment.
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Post by mccarthy55cmu on Oct 12, 2013 22:16:20 GMT -6
I'm not arguing that this is how it is written gentlemen, I'm arguing the fact this is indeed a RULE CHANGE. We have never done it this way. I'm suggesting, if it is to be changed to the way it is actually written that there be a vote on this issue. There have already been numerous games played this season and NONE of them have played the way the rule is currently written. They are all playing the way we have ALWAYS played.
I'm calling for a vote to be made regarding this rule.
1) Play the way that we have always played regarding resetting the shot clock. 2) Revert to the way the rule is actually written.
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Post by Zigmister on Oct 14, 2013 13:54:46 GMT -6
Going into the Rulebook updates, specifically the Shot Clock, i originally proposed a similar idea to what McCarthy was talking about. I proposed the change to Felix and Dylan Fettig, who i've mentioned before as helping with the Rulebook.
In clearing up the language, we worked out a scenario. The argument is based on the idea that a Player has to release before expiration regardless. We thought it out to two possible scenarios: A thrower hears the shot clock expiring and: a. Throws before the clock expires, and flight time is allowed for the throw to make it there even if the clock expires. This stresses the act of the throw. b. Throws before the clock expires and also with enough time to reach the LAZ before the shot clock expires, meaning the Thrower would have to think about throwing at 12-13, maybe 14 on a quick throw.
My original proposal was based on (a), but Felix said the older rules dictated the Throw had to enter the LAZ (or higgs boson) in order to be reset. Dylan also added that we couldn't add the extra three second rule without a Captains' Vote. Agreeing with that and agreeing that my proposed language would be a rule change, I updated the Reset wording that would be in accordance with scenario (b). Scenario (b) is also how last year's rulebook defined it, and how it has been defined since the rulebook was voted in 2011. So in order not to change the rulebook, we went with how it was worded in years past.
P/ for proposed and bold for new text
and this is the final version that was released:
Although i didn't explicitly think of Bomis' notes on the Timekeepers attention at first, those are good points. The Shot Clock has a nasty history of underenforcement and being badly officiated. We can't help that unless we provide officials that will enforce it the way it's been printed in the Rulebook for the past 3-4 years. Continued exploitation by teams has continually refined the language of the Shot Clock in order to keep the game from excessive stall ball.
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Post by Zigmister on Oct 14, 2013 13:58:53 GMT -6
Point 1 is handled under Officials' Discretion. If the timeout was intentionally called in that way, i'd rule the balls were able to score a hit. But the situation is determined by the Head Referee on the court at that time.
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Post by Dylan Fettig on Oct 14, 2013 15:00:28 GMT -6
Point 1.
I agree, I think the balls should be live after the whistle until they become officially dead. Also, in response to Zig's last post, I do not think that there should be rules that allow the official to have a discretion. It should be black and white.
But Point 2.....
There are so many reasons that the rule should remain the way it is now, and literally no reasons it should be changed besides "that's the way we have always played".
As an official - There is no way to enforce the rule any other way because there is no way to know if the ball will get to the LAZ until it gets there. And if you reset the clock when someone releases a ball, and then realize it did not make it there the offending team is going to get angry and argue once you retract your initial call.
As a player- If the rule is "on your release" there are many ways to abuse this, it will just slow down the game, and cause confusion to everyone. On 14.5 someone could lob a ball up in the air, and for the next 2-5 seconds three more people on your team could push the opponents team back and throw more balls before the first ball lands. That ball did not fall in the LAZ but the other balls may have even though they were thrown after 15s. So what is the call there?
The ball has to be in the LAZ within 15 seconds, or the rule basically loses all legitimacy.
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Post by cobrien18 on Jan 30, 2014 11:32:26 GMT -6
With a couple of big tournaments approaching (MDC, Beast etc), teams and referees alike should really stress point 2. I know this past weekend when we played GVSU there were several offenses for both teams that should have resulted in shot clock violations. The ball did not reach the LAZ before the shot clocker would have hit fifteen, but the throws were let slide because the ball was thrown before fifteen. I know at the MDC, as hosts, we are really going to stress the rule as it is written. We are going to inform very team and ref that the mall must enter the LAZ before the beginning of fifteen, or it is a violation and should be called as such. So I would suggest to all other teams to really stress this fact in practice so we avoid any controversy at any of these next tournaments or nationals.
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Post by WKU-Perrone-76 on Jan 30, 2014 14:02:05 GMT -6
Thanks Colin, I completely agree. I noticed something else at the UK invite last weekend too. The shotclock is fifteen seconds long, not an arbitrary count to fifteen; a few times I noticed it took 20-25 seconds for the shotclock counter to reach the fifteenth second he was counting. Fifteen seconds is not a lot of time, and it should be upheld to that standard to promote a faster rate of play. I will hand it to one of the UK officials though, he did an excellent job in keeping accurate counts of time. This is where those helpful apps would come into play.
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Post by GVSU-Bailey on Jan 31, 2014 8:35:23 GMT -6
As Colin said, our game with MSU had a few shot clock issues. The main thing that I have noticed in the past is that counters are often JV players and might not be the most knowledgeable of the rules. The most important thing for teams to do is stress the "LAZ rule" WITH THE COUNTERS before the game and it will hopefully prevent some of the issues with shot clock violation "no calls".
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Post by Zigmister on Feb 1, 2014 13:53:57 GMT -6
The shotclock is fifteen seconds long, not an arbitrary count to fifteen; a few times I noticed it took 20-25 seconds for the shotclock counter to reach the fifteenth second he was counting. Fifteen seconds is not a lot of time, and it should be upheld to that standard to promote a faster rate of play. Timekeepers should be using a time piece that keeps track of seconds. Using a watch or counting stopwatch, even if its on the phone, is a positively easy way to make sure your counting is on the correct time.
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