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Post by Dylan Fettig on Apr 13, 2011 21:22:10 GMT -6
Also, false starts are probably the hardest things for refs to watch for during a game. Some players know this and cheat off the run. With this new rule, both of this is eliminated and it's one less thing that people will get mad about during games
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Post by mccarthy55cmu on Apr 13, 2011 21:23:17 GMT -6
Yeah, but what kinda hurt are we talking? A black eye? A rolled ankle?
The kid that broke his leg, did not do that in the opening rush.
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mtrip8
Junior Member
Posts: 62
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Post by mtrip8 on Apr 13, 2011 23:21:33 GMT -6
Hahaha It's only been like another 25! Be gentle my son. hahaha But the thing that bothers me the most is that I think Central is the fastest team in the whole league. There was no one point the entire weekend that they didn't get ball advantage and when I say ball advantage i don't mean 6-4 i mean 7-3. 8-2, 9-1, and 10-0, and that was HUGE against OSU, SVSU, and GVSU. Being able to get more balls and then go pick off who you want to because you have great arms to do that with is a key thing in this sport. We have video from the national championship and just being carious about what you said i decided to see the run up results of the national championship. point 1 - 6-4 CMU - GVSU wins point - single throw no hit/elimination point 2 - 6-4 CMU - half, players left at half gvsu-4 cmu 2 - first throw #23 Fisher caught on single throw by gvsu point 3 - 6-4 CMU - CMU wins point - first throw #9 Sweet single cross no hit point 4 - 7-3 CMU - CMU wins point - first throw #11 Hawkins solo cross no hit, 2nd throw #23 fisher solo throw no hit The throws listed are the initial throws with the ball advantage due to the run up. So CMU did have the ball advantage each point, by your definition of ball advantage you had it only once against GVSU, and the throws made with it eliminated no one. The first point of the game GVSU lost the run up and won the point, point 2 they were able to survive the end of the point at a slight player disadvantage after winning the run up. Point 3 CMU won but no ball advantage gained on the run up amounted to anything off the bat. The 4th point CMU won the run up 7-3 and their first 2 throws with the run up eliminated no one, however they still won the point and the National Championship. Im sure the film will be up soon so you can double check that when you can. and it is a small sample size but the run up didnt seem to have a large/distinct direct effect on the national championship
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Post by stokesj on Apr 13, 2011 23:37:39 GMT -6
We've had someone tear their ACL in a practice as well as Romy Lambaria, an assistant captain and great player, break his nose. The broken nose resulted in him not playing for 1/4 of a season because it was bad enough. Both of these were results of the run up and both of which were neither of their faults. So this is not "just a black eye," these are life altering injuries.
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Post by trippiedigv12 on Apr 13, 2011 23:38:37 GMT -6
Greg, so your telling me, that if Grand Valley was to get ball advantage say 7-3 and were able to run up and pick off fisher, sweet, and bryce in the same throw that's not an advantage? Come on get real. Starting off the game by knocking out the opposing teams best players is HUGE. And how often do people HONESTLY get hurt? There were 100+ run ups this weekend and we had 3 people get hurt out of 400 people? That's not a high percentage of injuries. Two things: 1) putting the best players in the out line off the opening throw isn't that much of an advantage. It's an advantage in that a team grabs the upper hand right away. But if an average CMU-GVSU point lasts 12 minutes, we're now talking about a situation where the best players on Central (using your example) are likely to re-enter the game in the most important situations. Thusly, I don't know that it would make sense, even if we could, to put Central's best players at the very front of the jail off the first through. It would certainly be more of an advantage to try to hit two sophomores (or whoever) and Bryce off the opening rush than the three captains. Basically, the 15 on 15 element of NCDA dodgeball eliminates most of the effects of the opening rush right away. If it was 6 on 6, I'd agree with you, two players going out immediately makes a huge difference. I'm just saying, all else equal, I like any 13 GVSU players over any 15 players on any other team in the nation. 2) You're also saying that we execute perfectly off the first throw and get a bunch of people out. While getting a huge ball advantage allows for that, it's way more likely that even GVSU or CMU misses the target off the initial team throw, and then we're basically talking about no ball advantage for either side. A perfect execution of our first throw would be ideal, but I think if we could have consistently eliminated the other team's best players off the run up just by getting to the balls first, we probably wouldn't have lost a game this year. If you're not the most accurate team, having the balls is a bigger advantage than throwing the balls.
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Post by trippiedigv12 on Apr 13, 2011 23:41:37 GMT -6
The kid that broke his leg, did not do that in the opening rush. Granted. Getting rid of the opening rush does also get rid of the most obvious injury situations in dodgeball. I mean, when you have some event in the game that has a higher injury rate than the fact that we allow headshots, it needs to be evaluated. And was. If I pointed out that we could cut injury rates by tossing out the opening rush, or by putting in a "head safety rule", you'd probably pick the one that didn't fundamentally change the game. That's my line of thinking as well.
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Post by x502xedgex on Apr 18, 2011 14:11:13 GMT -6
this is my whole outlook on this situation
we played the new way, with 5 balls on each neutral zone line. and i must say that this is the absolute stupidest thing i have ever heard of. it made me not even want to play.
the game needs to be exciting from start to finish. if you take out the opening rush as to something as stupid as what it is now then the game has lost its ability to keep people interested anymore. i love this game i really do, but even i wanted to just quit after that practice.
look this rule is stupid, and i would be using stronger language if the boards didnt change it.
the opening rush allows for so much, ball control. the ability to get a quick out, its a game changer. i dont care what anyone says about ball advantage not being important it is. when you look around after a break and see that you only have 3-4, the first thing you say is SH!T....because you know now you have to play different to win that point. why even have a break if your going to give each team 5 balls.....makes no sense, if your going to b!tch that ball control wins games, then get over it. if your going to cry about it grow up and do something, practice harder practice more, if you pulling the ball advantage card as to why you lost, you dont need to be playing.
granted yes there are injuries that happen from the opening rush, but ill tell you something, every game, every practice i know the risk when i step on that court. you sign a wavier for a reason. every sport has its risks, i have seen people get paralyzed for life from hits in football, but they dont change the rules to two hand touch because of it, they alter what is a legal hit and what is something that can cause the player to be fined or not. i have seen a guy get the bone that houses his eye crushed from a fastball, but that doesnt change the rules either, any sport that is a contact sport. so hockey, football, soccer, anything....it has risks. and some people may say "well dodgeball isnt a contact sport" to that i say if getting hit with a rubber ball thats traveling up to 70+ mph isnt contact then idk what you define as contact. the risk for injury is something that you cant take out, the worst thing i have ever seen in dodgeball is that guy breaking his leg at nationals, and all he did was catch a ball. i have seen people on our team sprain ankles from jumping and coming down wrong. if your afraid to get hurt get off the court. i have yet to be hurt from the rush, and if i was in anyway i would get over it because i played the game and knew the risks.
overall this new rule on the opening rush is by far the stupidest thing i have ever heard about being changed in this amazing sport because it changes the sport from amazing to something that isnt the dodgeball. it this rule stands ill seriously think about not playing because it was that boring at practice, im going to account that practice to the low numbers of people but the feeling is still there.
if your trying to make something safe, educate people on the proper ways to do an opening rush dont change the game. because if your trying to lower the risk of injury then think about making head shot illegal. i heard that the kid from uk popped a ball on someones face from a bit of a distance away. what if he was closer though? a ball traveling at the speed alot of us throw them at will do some damage to someone. your talking about the possibility of concussion, getting knocked out and hitting your head on the floor causing a cracked open head, the possibility of a busted nose or mouth, you can break a nose, or even cause permanent damage to an eye to where someone wont be able to see for the rest of their life. this sport is full of the possibilities for injury but so is everything we do in our day to day lives.
but no one will even think about that change, because their "crowd pleasers" or you cant control if you hit someone in the face, or its not your fault. but you know what its no ones fault if you get hurt from an opening rush, if you dont want to get hurt, dont run simple as that. the reason that it seemed so many people got hurt at nationals is because of the amount of people that were playing and the games that were played in 2 days. everything gets boosted then, headshots, catches, games won and played, everything including risk for injuries.
whats going to happen is people that arent as good at this sport will start to complain that making the balls even on each side give teams that are really good the advantage to win over teams that arent. because they will be able to feed all their big arms early in the game, or only throw one ball until a team slips and throws 2, then you keep those 6 on your side, keep waiting they will mess up again, and bam you have 7 balls against 3 and youll keep it that way to always keep ball advantage. then this will make people not want to play and then teams will fall apart and so will this league. because the opening rush gives people hope to get that advantage. because the first time i lose that race to that ball, i get pumped, i get to where i want that ball more then that kid and im trying my hardest to get it, because if feel that way, everyone that lost a ball feels that way and we have hope to get ball advantage off the start, if you start 5 and 5...you throw that away. our captain always told us that its mental, that if you can intimidate someone you dont have to be better to win. and if you have ball advantage thats intimidating, it puts fear in some and gives power to others.
i would really think about the way you change this aspect of the game, because i can see a bunch of ways that it can hurt not only the way the games is played but the future of this league, if only after a practice i thought about quitting and playing rugby or lacrosse because of the contact there then i can only imagine what others are going to think when they try it out for themselves.
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cg
Full Member
Posts: 194
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Post by cg on Apr 18, 2011 15:46:31 GMT -6
Trip's got me curious on the benefit of "winning" the opening rush. I'll have to look into that once WKU gets footage uploaded to the server.
I write without commenting on the rule past or present, but only to state that the best formulated rules are made with a purpose in mind. Being able to succinctly articulate what you wish to achieve usually makes the new rule or the rule modification a straightforward result.
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Post by sweeter9 on Apr 18, 2011 15:59:54 GMT -6
So, i havent been on in a while but i wanted to put this thought in your minds. Ball advantage isnt always offensive. 6-4 lead to start a game is minimal but if you get rid of wall ball, like we often did, you can get a good counter with 5 balls and at most 4 balls on the other side. This ball advantage at the beginning, if done correctly, can effect the rest of the game. With that being said, i could care less how it is changed. I dont mind minimizing risk but i also think that a lot of the risk comes down to your players. If i see i am about to lose or it is close, i will try but i will be more worried about avoiding the player than getting the ball. We just need to teach our players to be more responsible and not go running in head down bulldozer style.
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Post by x502xedgex on Apr 18, 2011 16:43:12 GMT -6
So, i havent been on in a while but i wanted to put this thought in your minds. Ball advantage isnt always offensive. 6-4 lead to start a game is minimal but if you get rid of wall ball, like we often did, you can get a good counter with 5 balls and at most 4 balls on the other side. This ball advantage at the beginning, if done correctly, can effect the rest of the game. With that being said, i could care less how it is changed. I dont mind minimizing risk but i also think that a lot of the risk comes down to your players. If i see i am about to lose or it is close, i will try but i will be more worried about avoiding the player than getting the ball. We just need to teach our players to be more responsible and not go running in head down bulldozer style. i agree 100% dont change the way the games played, captains teach your players how to do the break out, if you dont know find a team that does. not to brag but in the time that i have played for WKU i have still yet to see an injury off the breakout. players listen to your captain, but also look into other teams that do well on the breakout. keep this change from happening
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Post by kentuckybrown on Apr 18, 2011 17:16:13 GMT -6
My thought process is that since this is a new rule everyone is going to dislike it for a while. Is this rule going to change the game tremendously? Probably not. But it will change it some.
Now I have been injured on the break before, I had a ball and was already on the way back when a guy on the other team dove into my knee and it tore some ligaments. I couldn't even walk for weeks, requiring a lot of rehab.
So is this rule change going to prevent some collisions. Hopefully, will it be changed again after this year? I don't know, but let's at least try it out for a while before passing judgment.
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Post by trippiedigv12 on Apr 18, 2011 18:59:41 GMT -6
I agree with Banks' point which is that running for 5 balls on the neutral zone line isn't something that's exciting enough to do at the beginning of every point of this next season. It will get more exciting when teams get used to it and can start making quick throws off the relay. That could actually decide something. At the start there will be a bunch of "I don't understand why they're doing this" moments.
And to that I say: it's a compromise. There were captains in the room who just weren't comfortable beginning a point with balls in the hands of players. For good reason: people wanted teams off the back line when action started. So we have the balls on the neutral lines. Dodgeball will be dodgeball. Someone will figure out how to get people off the relay, and it will probably end up more exciting than grabbing and returning all ten balls. And there will be strategy at the start of points and such. It will be good for the league.
Until then, people will just be going through the motions to begin a point.
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Post by trippiedigv12 on Apr 18, 2011 19:06:02 GMT -6
i agree 100% dont change the way the games played, captains teach your players how to do the break out, if you dont know find a team that does. not to brag but in the time that i have played for WKU i have still yet to see an injury off the breakout. players listen to your captain, but also look into other teams that do well on the breakout. keep this change from happening In the hundreds, perhaps thousands of NCDA points I have participated in or watched, there hasn't been one point where the opening rush decided the outcome of the point. Not one. But with the injuries: I can prove they happened. The other thing I would point out is: if your team feels like it can't play with the ball advantage now that the game starts 5 balls against 5 balls, your team never knew how to play ball advantage to begin with.
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Post by hillebrp on Apr 18, 2011 19:38:07 GMT -6
i would really think about the way you change this aspect of the game, because i can see a bunch of ways that it can hurt not only the way the games is played but the future of this league, if only after a practice i thought about quitting and playing rugby or lacrosse because of the contact there then i can only imagine what others are going to think when they try it out for themselves. Rugby or Lacrosse? Did you realize that physical contact was illegal in dodgeball even when the run-up did exist?
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Post by x502xedgex on Apr 18, 2011 20:59:01 GMT -6
i would really think about the way you change this aspect of the game, because i can see a bunch of ways that it can hurt not only the way the games is played but the future of this league, if only after a practice i thought about quitting and playing rugby or lacrosse because of the contact there then i can only imagine what others are going to think when they try it out for themselves. Rugby or Lacrosse? Did you realize that physical contact was illegal in dodgeball even when the run-up did exist? yeah i do, im not saying that im going to play those sports because of the physical contact, but if our sport decided to actually stand up against idiots that cant do the rush right or actually try to teach people how to do a rush right then i want to play a sport where at least if i do hit someone its because of the game, and no ones going to b!tch about it. this rule may be something that people get use to or whatever, but as of right now its something that i feel is just flat out retarded. it has yet to show any improvement in the game, and also hasn't shown to make the game more fun. until then i still stand on the feelings that i posted earlier, what will probably happen is some people will try to be hard @sses and get the other players balls and then blam, more injuries. i still think that if you dont want the possibility of getting hurt then dont run. to all those who got hurt, before you ran was that what you were thinking about, the possibility of getting hurt? after you got hurt did you blame anyone, did you blame yourself or someone else. when you told everyone that asked did you tell them it was your fault or the other guys. the rule is sh!tty in my opinion. it makes the game way less entertaining, its going to give people something to b!tch about also. i mean for christ sake, the crappy pro dodgeball league we all make fun of puts all their balls on the half court. www.theNDL.com/downloads/NDL-Official-Court-Diagram.pdfthis is their rules on the rush The Rush The Rush occurs at the beginning of each game or reset. Upon the official's signal, both teams rush to center court and attempt to retrieve as many balls as possible. A team may rush with as many or as few players as it wants, but at least one person from each team has to Rush. There is no limit to how many balls an individual player may retrieve. Players may not slide or dive head first into the neutral zone or they will be called out. Crossing over the neutral zone will result in an "out." Players may not physically grab and pull another player across the neutral zone or prevent them from returning to their side of the court. it sounds alot like our rules, why cant we just keep it this way and make it to where 'X' amount of people can run from each team, have it to where 5 players from each team run, not let 8 guys from one team and then only 5 guys from one. are there problems with the rush? yeah i think there are, but i dont think this is the solution that were wanting. if you only let a maximum of 6 or 7 guys run for a ball from each squad then it will cut back on injuries because there isnt gonna be 4 people going for one ball, you wont be overcrowded, and no ones going to get pushed into someone else because they bumped into them. heck even if you only let 5 guys from each squad run theres still excitement in that due to the fact that you have to choose, speed, or the an arm to get the throw. also i have seen people get 2 or 3 balls off a rush so whats to say that doesnt happen and then the balls are uneven on each side. theres better alternatives to the rush problem other then changing the way its done. especially a way like this, i mean come on....i find it an insult to even rush now if i know im going to get a ball. quit complaining, if you dont want to get hurt off the rush dont run plain and simple, dont sign a wavier saying its ok if you get hurt then try to make what ever you signed up for injury free, if you have gotten hurt, then really i am sorry that you did, but at the same time did you come back to the game? did you come back to dodgeball after you had gotten hurt and the rule still didnt change? i am prolly safe in saying that you prolly even rushed again. yet you knew you could get hurt again so why is it such a huge deal to change things all of a sudden? i say that we alter what is what not change the way something is done.
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